Letter 177
"The debate over the proposed abortion bill is leading down the same old rabbit trail--abortions for rape or incest."
That "same old rabbit trail" has alot of significance. It is to remind people of the repurcussions of what banning abortion entails.
"A common response from pro-lifers is to say how few abortions are due to rape or incest. This is a point that needs to be made."
I don't care how rare it is. And by rare you need to be specific. It is actually THOUSANDS of women every year. I suspect that you say it is an important point to be made because you recognize that banning abortion will hurt at least SOME rape victims and you want to skip over this reality as quickly as possible.
" However, the rape question also feeds a fear that people already have in their minds: "What if our daughter is raped? What if my sister is raped? What if I'm raped?"
Yeah, so what if I am? And you need to also acknowledge the fear that people already have from the fact that they have ALREADY been raped! And this fear is a legitimate one considering the rates of sexual violence in this country. It is worth noting that countries that ban abortion tend to have the highest rates of rape. But what alot of people don't even consider is that even without the rape experience, ANYONE can have an unintended pregnancy. There are numerous accounts of people changing their minds about abortion once they themselves were affected by an unplanned pregnancy.
"We need to do all we can to help the woman who is pregnant through rape. What does she need?"
I agree that we need to do all we can to help these women. And that includes letting them abort. What she needs is choice.
"Before we can answer that, we need to examine what her specific problems are."
The problems for survivors will be unique to the individual.
"Researchers say that women feel dirty, helpless, and insecure after having been raped."
Common sense. But I think it is interesting that you note the feeling of helplessness. That is very important. They have had their power taken away from them. To restore that power is crucial. And I am sure that strangers coming in and telling them that they don't know what is best for them so they need to let others decide is really going to help them feel less insecure.
"They experience shame or guilt, as if they were somehow responsible."
And I have no doubt that if she goes aheads and decides to abort, you will do everything in your power to make sure she feels that way again.
"They feel violated,"
Because they were.
"But almost never will you hear it said that pregnancy is the primary problem."
NOT true. I also think it is notable that you state pregnancy isn't the primary problem. You don't say that it is not a problem at all.
"There are many, many examples of women who say that they have at least learned to accept and live with the fact that they have been raped. However, many who had abortions say they will never be able to accept the fact that they killed their own baby."
How about instead of reinforcing the societal stigma against women who abort, which most likely lead to them having such feelings in the first place, you work towards helping the women do MORE than just "learning to live with it." Better yet, work towards rape prevention itself.
"Through abortion she becomes not only a victim of someone else's actions, but of her own as well."
She became a victim again because of people like YOU who villify these women.
"Let's not victimize the rape victim twice."
Agreed. And let's do that by making sure they are not forced into another decision against their will by having the abortion option taken from them.
"She needs love, not abortion."
She needs love. To best show that love, we must respect her wishes regarding abortion.
You FAIL!
Tuesday, August 30, 2011
Gotquestions.org.... I'm BAAAAAAACK!!
http://www.gotquestions.org/children-blessing.html
Question: "Are children always a blessing from God?"
Let's keep reading to find out shall we?
Answer: "The Scriptures are very clear that God is present in the creation of every human life. "
Is it not possible that he could be "present" in the sense that he infuses a soul but not that he "pokes" the whole thing into being?
"The fact that God sovereignly superintended David's creation caused him to praise God. David also pointed out the fact that God had the details of his life planned before eternity."
I do wonder though if he would have praised GOD otherwise. Since GOD knows the future, it is not too far fetched that he could see that David would come to be and that he could then make plans for him.
"Of course, this brings up a very good question."
Why? Why does it bring up a good question? If it is truly from GOD, there should be no logical inconsistencies. But let's get on to the question at hand.
"What about those conceived out of rape or illegitimacy?"
HOLD UP! How can children be born illegitimate if GOD planned them? And why exactly do you make a distinction between a rape induced pregnancy and an "illegitimate" one?
"The parent or parents that are responsible for that child may not "feel" as though that child is a blessing from God, but how that child was conceived does not mean that God did not sovereignly superintend its formation in the womb as David speaks of."
I find it totally cringeworthy that you consider a rapist to be a "parent" figure. Only biologically at best. And why are the parents responsible for the child? I thought it was GOD that superimposed it?
And I LOOVE how you put " feels" in parenthesis. Like the thoughts and experiences of the parents should be of no account. And you are a sick freak for thinking GOD uses rape.
"God has a plan and purpose for every person born regardless of how that birth came about. If this were not so then the Scripture would not have said so. In the New Testament, we read that God loves us so much that He sent His Son to die for us (John 3:16). "
Does he have a plan for those that were aborted? And why would he create such a situation?
"It is God's plan and desire that each child be born according to His plan for us and that is through marriage. When that does not happen, it does not exclude the fact of God's love and care for the child."
If it is his plan for each child to be born in matrimony, why does it not happen that way?
You FAIL!
Question: "Are children always a blessing from God?"
Let's keep reading to find out shall we?
Answer: "The Scriptures are very clear that God is present in the creation of every human life. "
Is it not possible that he could be "present" in the sense that he infuses a soul but not that he "pokes" the whole thing into being?
"The fact that God sovereignly superintended David's creation caused him to praise God. David also pointed out the fact that God had the details of his life planned before eternity."
I do wonder though if he would have praised GOD otherwise. Since GOD knows the future, it is not too far fetched that he could see that David would come to be and that he could then make plans for him.
"Of course, this brings up a very good question."
Why? Why does it bring up a good question? If it is truly from GOD, there should be no logical inconsistencies. But let's get on to the question at hand.
"What about those conceived out of rape or illegitimacy?"
HOLD UP! How can children be born illegitimate if GOD planned them? And why exactly do you make a distinction between a rape induced pregnancy and an "illegitimate" one?
"The parent or parents that are responsible for that child may not "feel" as though that child is a blessing from God, but how that child was conceived does not mean that God did not sovereignly superintend its formation in the womb as David speaks of."
I find it totally cringeworthy that you consider a rapist to be a "parent" figure. Only biologically at best. And why are the parents responsible for the child? I thought it was GOD that superimposed it?
And I LOOVE how you put " feels" in parenthesis. Like the thoughts and experiences of the parents should be of no account. And you are a sick freak for thinking GOD uses rape.
"God has a plan and purpose for every person born regardless of how that birth came about. If this were not so then the Scripture would not have said so. In the New Testament, we read that God loves us so much that He sent His Son to die for us (John 3:16). "
Does he have a plan for those that were aborted? And why would he create such a situation?
"It is God's plan and desire that each child be born according to His plan for us and that is through marriage. When that does not happen, it does not exclude the fact of God's love and care for the child."
If it is his plan for each child to be born in matrimony, why does it not happen that way?
You FAIL!
Gender Betraying
http://femaletalk.com/news/abortion-scam-why-pro-choice-really-anti-woman-why-feminist-argument-really-sexist
"It is hard to find a political debate in which the abortion issue does not get raised."
Are you complaining? Whose fault do you think that is? I am pretty sure that is exactly what your movement wants.
"It is easily the most heatedly argued issue in the United States and one in which most people are very passionate about and it has been heralded as the quintessential women's rights issue of the modern age;"
It doesn't have to be so heated. In fact, it doesn't have to be heated at all. It most certainly is an important and, dare I say ( sarcasm) THE most important cause for women.
"However, is abortion really a women's rights issue or is it in fact one of the most sexist, anti-woman ideas in histoyr? "
Now it gets interesting. Let's keep reading.
"Typically, the abortion issue centers around the baby in question "
Maybe in your circles but not in mine. ALL factors, born, unborn, yet to be born and societal impact are all considered. The fact that your focus is ALL about the embryo is the very problem.
"and while there are certainly some very valid and important arguments to be made there"
Sure there are. We never said their wasn't.
"I want to challenge you to step away from those arguments, regardless of which side of the fence you are on, and to look at the role between women's rights, societal views of women and abortion."
Wow, an anti choicer ACTUALLY saying for people to consider the woman for a moment. WOW. Let's keep reading.
"The first and foremost argument made in support of abortion is that it is a woman's decision- her body, her choice."
In many circles. The BIG argument though is that abortion is needed for women to have total control over their reproductive lives which IS essential to equality.
"But what is this really saying?"
It's saying exactly what it says it says. NEXT.
"Instead of putting equal responsibility on the men for the sexual behavior and for their offspring, the abortion debate itself is saying to women that you, and you alone are solely responsible for getting knocked up and because it is your fault, it is your problem to deal with."
And here is is folks. It doesn't take long for the misoginy to seep thru. Abortion IS taking responsibility!! What is irresponsible is to give birth when you are unready. And this is a decision that is OFTEN made by both parties. HECK, in some countries you even need spousal consent. Many men actually USE pregnancy as a way to "entrap" women into staying with them. And sorry, when it comes to blaming women for "getting knocked up" the people in your camp don't have a leg to stand on. I have lost count the number of times I have heard people call women who abort sluts or say that she should just have kept her legs shut.
"There is nothing liberating or empowering about this argument, in fact it is more condescending and sexist than even the whole “know your place” idea."
How many times have i had someone in your camp tell me that women should accept their place as mothers? Yeah, lots of times. What is condescending is your ignorant statement that women make these decisions on their own without any other guidance or thought put into it.
"And then of course, there is the issue of informed consent, if it is really about choice, why are so few women ever informed about the realities and risks of abortion?"
They ARE informed!! It is law!. Another strawman. And do you warn women of the risks of childbirth and the healing period after it?
"Further, it is used as a fail-safe to send the message that abortion is needed to clean up after the mess that irresponsible women create."
You are doing a poor job of hiding what you truly think of women who abort. It just goes back to the whole fallacy that women who abort are looking for an easy way out. And no, women don't think they are going in for an "abortion broom." That is such an assanine comment about cleaning up a mess.
"Instead of saying that women are empowered to make their own decisions regarding sexuality and reproduction prior to conception, we as a society seem to act as if women do not have a choice (since after all they are portrayed as being merely sexual objects) and therefore abortion is necessary to take care of the unwanted consequences afterward."
I agree women are portrayed as merely sex objects quite regularly in this society. Problem is, a large portion of that comes from YOUR camp. Yes, we need to fight to make sure women are not in positions to need an abortion. But that is NOT what your camp fights for. And we act as if women don't have a choice? Isn't "choice" what you are arguing against?
"This is an extremely negative and dangerous argument that undermines women's rights and silences our voices."
What is extremally dangerous and negative is the societal attitude towards women who abort that they are wrong and sinners for doing it.
"We should, instead, be empowering ourselves to take control of our own sexuality, to wait until we are ready to deal with it and to advocate more choice and accessibility in birth control options that truly put women in charge-- that would be the real choice, not taking it to an extreme after the fact, even if it risks our health and well being and future conception possibilities. But to do this, would be to threaten the current male driven society."
WOW, an anti advocating birth control. Glad to see it. I hope the people in your camp start to listen up. But do NOT start with the whole abortion is dangerous speil. It is one of the safest medical procedures we have today. YES, there is risk. But there is risk in every operation.
"Our current society, particularly in the West, is driven by the idea that women are sexual objects to satisfy men on demand."
Fully agree with that statement except for the point about it being particularly horrid in the west. I implore you to do some research into the treatment of middle eastern women.
"It has long been held that men control all aspects of sexuality in this society and with the rate of pornography, so called "gentleman's clubs", and high rates of sexual assaults and other crimes against women, we can see that clearly—it is all geared to cater to the image of men being in control."
WOW, an anti speaking out against sexual assault. That is commendable. You are the first one I have EVER seen do that. Not surprisingly though, countries with strict anti abortion laws are the most patriarchal.
"To empower women to take charge, and to actually be the ones to control their own sexuality would threaten this and thus, it plays better into the hands of sexism to push abortion as a “clean up” alternative instead of giving us the power to control conception in the first place."
Yes, that is why we in the pro choice movement are dedicated to increasing access to birth control and other such services. But speaking of controlling fertility, that is EXACTLY what abortion allows us to do.
"What about the so called “hard cases” of rape?"
What's with the so-called? You don't think rape is a hard case? And I can think of hard cases that don't involve rape.
"This is often used at the forefront of the debate as the reason why abortion must be legal, but in reality it is merely trying to play upon the fears and concerns of the “weaker sex” and to almost make an excuse for rape by saying “well you can always have an abortion” as if the trauma of such a horrific violation is just going to go away and you are expected to just go on and forget about it because at least you can have an abortion if you get pregnant; how could you be more insulting? And they push this sexist attempt to placate women while hiding the fact that only 1-2% of all abortions are due to rape or incest, a little fact that they tend to leave out."
WOW, soooo much to pown here. There are many reasons why abortion MUST be legal. Rape is ONE of many. Play upon fears? NO, like you said sexual assault is a common crime that every woman is susceptible to. This is a real issue that affects thousands of women every year in this country alone. Speaking of "weaker sex" how physically strong do you think a woman would be against an attacker if she is made to stay pregnant? And you are SOOOO dishonest with your insinuation that these women think abortion is going to take it all away!! They know it won't. But it can put them on the path to getting past it. And that statistic you cited adds up to around 13 to 16,000 women A YEAR!
"Perhaps the most diabolical part of it all is that those behind the great abortion scam use women to further their own sexist agenda and convince women that they need these misogynistic ideas, that they are even for their own good and they point to anyone in the pro-life camp as being a threat against women."
Yep, because you ARE a threat to women. And we use women? Like we are just making women join forces with us? Come off it.
"While I certainly will agree that a good portion of the right is made up of those on the sexist bandwagon, that is not true of all those who are Pro-Life."
I have yet to meet any that were not sexist in some fashion. That is not to say it isn't possible. I just highly suspect it to be unlikely. And since by your own admission there are people in your camp who hold that view, what are YOU doing to change it?
"Even the democrats and the liberal left are full of pro-life supporters as are many avid and vocal feminists."
I am aware of that. And unfortunately they are spitting out the same dribble you are.
"But apart of the arguments from a feminist or anti-feminist stance as the case may be, what about the actual physical issues involved? Is abortion a safe, even important medical option for women as the pro-abortion activists claim or is it more harmful to women than they are willing to admit? "
I already addressed this. There are risks with any surgery.
"When we sift through all of the information and separate the facts from the propaganda and look at the real underlying issues and hidden agendas, we are left with one inescapable conclusion- Abortion is an all out assault on women. "
And from reading your article here I have escaped with one conclusion. Anti choicers are soo desperate to hide their agenda that they will go to any lengths necessary to make it appear as if they give a crap about women. Sorry, better luck next time?
"It is hard to find a political debate in which the abortion issue does not get raised."
Are you complaining? Whose fault do you think that is? I am pretty sure that is exactly what your movement wants.
"It is easily the most heatedly argued issue in the United States and one in which most people are very passionate about and it has been heralded as the quintessential women's rights issue of the modern age;"
It doesn't have to be so heated. In fact, it doesn't have to be heated at all. It most certainly is an important and, dare I say ( sarcasm) THE most important cause for women.
"However, is abortion really a women's rights issue or is it in fact one of the most sexist, anti-woman ideas in histoyr? "
Now it gets interesting. Let's keep reading.
"Typically, the abortion issue centers around the baby in question "
Maybe in your circles but not in mine. ALL factors, born, unborn, yet to be born and societal impact are all considered. The fact that your focus is ALL about the embryo is the very problem.
"and while there are certainly some very valid and important arguments to be made there"
Sure there are. We never said their wasn't.
"I want to challenge you to step away from those arguments, regardless of which side of the fence you are on, and to look at the role between women's rights, societal views of women and abortion."
Wow, an anti choicer ACTUALLY saying for people to consider the woman for a moment. WOW. Let's keep reading.
"The first and foremost argument made in support of abortion is that it is a woman's decision- her body, her choice."
In many circles. The BIG argument though is that abortion is needed for women to have total control over their reproductive lives which IS essential to equality.
"But what is this really saying?"
It's saying exactly what it says it says. NEXT.
"Instead of putting equal responsibility on the men for the sexual behavior and for their offspring, the abortion debate itself is saying to women that you, and you alone are solely responsible for getting knocked up and because it is your fault, it is your problem to deal with."
And here is is folks. It doesn't take long for the misoginy to seep thru. Abortion IS taking responsibility!! What is irresponsible is to give birth when you are unready. And this is a decision that is OFTEN made by both parties. HECK, in some countries you even need spousal consent. Many men actually USE pregnancy as a way to "entrap" women into staying with them. And sorry, when it comes to blaming women for "getting knocked up" the people in your camp don't have a leg to stand on. I have lost count the number of times I have heard people call women who abort sluts or say that she should just have kept her legs shut.
"There is nothing liberating or empowering about this argument, in fact it is more condescending and sexist than even the whole “know your place” idea."
How many times have i had someone in your camp tell me that women should accept their place as mothers? Yeah, lots of times. What is condescending is your ignorant statement that women make these decisions on their own without any other guidance or thought put into it.
"And then of course, there is the issue of informed consent, if it is really about choice, why are so few women ever informed about the realities and risks of abortion?"
They ARE informed!! It is law!. Another strawman. And do you warn women of the risks of childbirth and the healing period after it?
"Further, it is used as a fail-safe to send the message that abortion is needed to clean up after the mess that irresponsible women create."
You are doing a poor job of hiding what you truly think of women who abort. It just goes back to the whole fallacy that women who abort are looking for an easy way out. And no, women don't think they are going in for an "abortion broom." That is such an assanine comment about cleaning up a mess.
"Instead of saying that women are empowered to make their own decisions regarding sexuality and reproduction prior to conception, we as a society seem to act as if women do not have a choice (since after all they are portrayed as being merely sexual objects) and therefore abortion is necessary to take care of the unwanted consequences afterward."
I agree women are portrayed as merely sex objects quite regularly in this society. Problem is, a large portion of that comes from YOUR camp. Yes, we need to fight to make sure women are not in positions to need an abortion. But that is NOT what your camp fights for. And we act as if women don't have a choice? Isn't "choice" what you are arguing against?
"This is an extremely negative and dangerous argument that undermines women's rights and silences our voices."
What is extremally dangerous and negative is the societal attitude towards women who abort that they are wrong and sinners for doing it.
"We should, instead, be empowering ourselves to take control of our own sexuality, to wait until we are ready to deal with it and to advocate more choice and accessibility in birth control options that truly put women in charge-- that would be the real choice, not taking it to an extreme after the fact, even if it risks our health and well being and future conception possibilities. But to do this, would be to threaten the current male driven society."
WOW, an anti advocating birth control. Glad to see it. I hope the people in your camp start to listen up. But do NOT start with the whole abortion is dangerous speil. It is one of the safest medical procedures we have today. YES, there is risk. But there is risk in every operation.
"Our current society, particularly in the West, is driven by the idea that women are sexual objects to satisfy men on demand."
Fully agree with that statement except for the point about it being particularly horrid in the west. I implore you to do some research into the treatment of middle eastern women.
"It has long been held that men control all aspects of sexuality in this society and with the rate of pornography, so called "gentleman's clubs", and high rates of sexual assaults and other crimes against women, we can see that clearly—it is all geared to cater to the image of men being in control."
WOW, an anti speaking out against sexual assault. That is commendable. You are the first one I have EVER seen do that. Not surprisingly though, countries with strict anti abortion laws are the most patriarchal.
"To empower women to take charge, and to actually be the ones to control their own sexuality would threaten this and thus, it plays better into the hands of sexism to push abortion as a “clean up” alternative instead of giving us the power to control conception in the first place."
Yes, that is why we in the pro choice movement are dedicated to increasing access to birth control and other such services. But speaking of controlling fertility, that is EXACTLY what abortion allows us to do.
"What about the so called “hard cases” of rape?"
What's with the so-called? You don't think rape is a hard case? And I can think of hard cases that don't involve rape.
"This is often used at the forefront of the debate as the reason why abortion must be legal, but in reality it is merely trying to play upon the fears and concerns of the “weaker sex” and to almost make an excuse for rape by saying “well you can always have an abortion” as if the trauma of such a horrific violation is just going to go away and you are expected to just go on and forget about it because at least you can have an abortion if you get pregnant; how could you be more insulting? And they push this sexist attempt to placate women while hiding the fact that only 1-2% of all abortions are due to rape or incest, a little fact that they tend to leave out."
WOW, soooo much to pown here. There are many reasons why abortion MUST be legal. Rape is ONE of many. Play upon fears? NO, like you said sexual assault is a common crime that every woman is susceptible to. This is a real issue that affects thousands of women every year in this country alone. Speaking of "weaker sex" how physically strong do you think a woman would be against an attacker if she is made to stay pregnant? And you are SOOOO dishonest with your insinuation that these women think abortion is going to take it all away!! They know it won't. But it can put them on the path to getting past it. And that statistic you cited adds up to around 13 to 16,000 women A YEAR!
"Perhaps the most diabolical part of it all is that those behind the great abortion scam use women to further their own sexist agenda and convince women that they need these misogynistic ideas, that they are even for their own good and they point to anyone in the pro-life camp as being a threat against women."
Yep, because you ARE a threat to women. And we use women? Like we are just making women join forces with us? Come off it.
"While I certainly will agree that a good portion of the right is made up of those on the sexist bandwagon, that is not true of all those who are Pro-Life."
I have yet to meet any that were not sexist in some fashion. That is not to say it isn't possible. I just highly suspect it to be unlikely. And since by your own admission there are people in your camp who hold that view, what are YOU doing to change it?
"Even the democrats and the liberal left are full of pro-life supporters as are many avid and vocal feminists."
I am aware of that. And unfortunately they are spitting out the same dribble you are.
"But apart of the arguments from a feminist or anti-feminist stance as the case may be, what about the actual physical issues involved? Is abortion a safe, even important medical option for women as the pro-abortion activists claim or is it more harmful to women than they are willing to admit? "
I already addressed this. There are risks with any surgery.
"When we sift through all of the information and separate the facts from the propaganda and look at the real underlying issues and hidden agendas, we are left with one inescapable conclusion- Abortion is an all out assault on women. "
And from reading your article here I have escaped with one conclusion. Anti choicers are soo desperate to hide their agenda that they will go to any lengths necessary to make it appear as if they give a crap about women. Sorry, better luck next time?
"This may be why we are seeing many Pro-Life Feminist groups springing up around the world to take a stand against this war that has been raged against women, and to reclaim our own pride and control over our lives by saying no to abortion and realizing that Pro-Choice is really just Anti-Woman."
And I am happy to report that more and more countries themselves are starting to realize how important abortion rights are for women and are reforming their backwards laws to reflect this reality. Even the UN and World Health Organization are starting to do as such.
You FAIL!
A Brave Girl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5hecclP69s
I don't know who this young lady is, but if you are reading this. GOD bless you dear. Keep fighting. I know it isn't easy. But your voice WILL be heard! To anyone else, Keep speaking up for yourself as this dear one has. Join her in her quest for justice.
I don't know who this young lady is, but if you are reading this. GOD bless you dear. Keep fighting. I know it isn't easy. But your voice WILL be heard! To anyone else, Keep speaking up for yourself as this dear one has. Join her in her quest for justice.
My mom was raped, poor me CONT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TL6aQVTOx8
It is stupid for these people to be holding signs that say Person's NOT Property! They are making women into property by making them have babies against their will.
(Rebecca speaking) " I learned I was concieved out of a burtal rape at knife point by a serial rapist. It was a truly worst case scenario. She was 4 ten weighed 90 pounds. Really petite. I know it was awful."
Don't act like you care that is was awful for her. It isn't as important to you as your existential crisis.
(Rebecca speaking)
" Today she is 100% pro life and very thankful that she wasn't able to legally abort me."
Tell the truth. She wasn't like that at first. It took her years to get to that point. And it is not uncommon for people grow to accept the circumstances in their lives especially if it turns out to have some positives which it did for your mother. She grew to love you. Good for her and good for you. Not always the case. There are PLENTY of cases where forcing a woman to have a baby turned out very badly.
(Rebecca speaking)
" For personhood there are no exceptions. It's not like you this is a person except for those children conceived in rape."
Strawman. No one is saying rape conceived children are not persons.
( Rebecca Kiessling)
" I am tired of mediocrity. GOD is not going to honor mediocrity."
I am tired of mediocrity too. I am really glad you brought up the GOD argument. It just goes to show that your organization is religiuosly affiliated which means it has no place running a secular government.
(Rebecca Speaking)
" I want to have the spirit of Caleb and Joshua and David who are not afraid of these giants in the land."
Oh but you are afraid. So very afraid. Afraid of yourself. Afraid of your own insecurity. You are actually the most fearful person I have ever witnessed.
( Rebecca Kiessling)
" And I want to have my stones and my trusty slingshot and I want to hit them where it counts."
Right back atcha Rebecca.
( Rebecca Speaking)
" And we will bring an end to abortion and the destruction of frozen embryos."
Not gonna happen. HASN'T happened across the world. The only way to truly fight abortion is to fight the circumstances that lead to abortion. Something I have NEVER seen you speak about.
(Rebecca Speaking)
" These people on the other side can be really cruel."
Sorry, you don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to cruelty.
The mother of all existential crisis. WOW
(Rebecca speaking)
" The world is a different place because it was illegal for my birth mother to abort me back then."
What is your point? The world is a different place because alot of people who are born here now are here BECAUSE their mothers had abortions. Quit with the existential crap. The world didn't start spinning once you were born.
You FAIL!!
It is stupid for these people to be holding signs that say Person's NOT Property! They are making women into property by making them have babies against their will.
(Rebecca speaking) " I learned I was concieved out of a burtal rape at knife point by a serial rapist. It was a truly worst case scenario. She was 4 ten weighed 90 pounds. Really petite. I know it was awful."
Don't act like you care that is was awful for her. It isn't as important to you as your existential crisis.
(Rebecca speaking)
" Today she is 100% pro life and very thankful that she wasn't able to legally abort me."
Tell the truth. She wasn't like that at first. It took her years to get to that point. And it is not uncommon for people grow to accept the circumstances in their lives especially if it turns out to have some positives which it did for your mother. She grew to love you. Good for her and good for you. Not always the case. There are PLENTY of cases where forcing a woman to have a baby turned out very badly.
(Rebecca speaking)
" For personhood there are no exceptions. It's not like you this is a person except for those children conceived in rape."
Strawman. No one is saying rape conceived children are not persons.
( Rebecca Kiessling)
" I am tired of mediocrity. GOD is not going to honor mediocrity."
I am tired of mediocrity too. I am really glad you brought up the GOD argument. It just goes to show that your organization is religiuosly affiliated which means it has no place running a secular government.
(Rebecca Speaking)
" I want to have the spirit of Caleb and Joshua and David who are not afraid of these giants in the land."
Oh but you are afraid. So very afraid. Afraid of yourself. Afraid of your own insecurity. You are actually the most fearful person I have ever witnessed.
( Rebecca Kiessling)
" And I want to have my stones and my trusty slingshot and I want to hit them where it counts."
Right back atcha Rebecca.
( Rebecca Speaking)
" And we will bring an end to abortion and the destruction of frozen embryos."
Not gonna happen. HASN'T happened across the world. The only way to truly fight abortion is to fight the circumstances that lead to abortion. Something I have NEVER seen you speak about.
(Rebecca Speaking)
" These people on the other side can be really cruel."
Sorry, you don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to cruelty.
The mother of all existential crisis. WOW
(Rebecca speaking)
" The world is a different place because it was illegal for my birth mother to abort me back then."
What is your point? The world is a different place because alot of people who are born here now are here BECAUSE their mothers had abortions. Quit with the existential crap. The world didn't start spinning once you were born.
You FAIL!!
My mom was raped. Poor me ( A Response to a Zealot)
"We’ve all heard someone say: “I’m pro-life, well, except in cases of rape …” or “I’m pro-choice, especially in cases of rape !”
For good reason. Rape is a crime of wanting to have total control over the destiny of another person. To allow abortion is to allow them to regain some autonomy and sense of wellness. Which is crucial to their healing. I am proud to live in a country that has evolved to the point where rape victims have at least some rights under the law.
"Have you ever considered how really insulting it is to say to someone, “I think your mother should have been able to abort you.”?
No because as a pro choice person I think my mom should have been able to have an abortion. And I have spoken and in fact am friends with pre ROE adoptees who are pro choice. They actually say that their mother's life would have been better if she had been able to have an abortion. And it is an argument from existential crisis which is bullcrap. NEXT.
" It’s like saying, “If I had my way, you’d be dead right now."
No, if I had my way your mother wouldn't have been raped in the first place. Way to be full of yourself Rebecca. You are using nothing but emotional manipulation to get your point. SO immature.
"And that is the reality with which I live every time someone says they are pro-choice or pro-life “except in cases of rape” because I absolutely would have been aborted if it had been legal in Michigan when I was an unborn child, and I can tell you that it hurts."
No, it is the reality YOU have created in your own mind due to a lack of self worth. The world is not against you. You are against IT. For you have shrunken the world down to your little existential crisis. So what? Your mother didn't exist just to have you. She had a life and welfare of her own that deserved to be respected. Yes your mother should have been able to get an abortion. That is the whole reason abortion is now legal. So women no longer have to go thru what your mother went thru.
So women no longer have to bear children unwillingly. We are ALL results of circumstances or practices that occured long ago that lead to us being here. It doesn't mean those practices were good or that they should be perpetuated because some of us wouldn't be here now if they hadn't happened.
" I know that most people don’t put a face to this issue — for them abortion is just a concept — with a quick cliche, they sweep it under the rug and forget about it. I do hope that, as a child conceived in rape, I can help to put a face, a voice, and a story to this issue. "
BULLCRAP!!! People definetly put a face to this issue because almost everyone knows someone who has been raped. And even more people know someone who has had an abortion. And what of the ones who DO put a face to this issue, like professionals for example that advocate for the needs of rape survivors? Or do they need YOUR face specifically? You are full of it for saying women have abortions willy nilly. Any rational thinking person knows that is bullcrap. And your statement of "A story" is very accurate. It is A story, not THE story!! I have read accounts of rape victims who got pregnant the same year your mom did and were denied abortions. Let's just say the consequences were bad for everyone involved. Yours is an anecdote. Nothing more. And your voice is a voice for yourself, NOT your mother!!
"In reply, some have said to me, “So does that mean you’re pro-rape?” Though ludicrous, I’ll address it because I understand that they aren’t thinking things through."
You could have fooled me. From the look of it you do NOTHING for rape prevention. The only one not thinking things thru is YOU! You have taken the victimization of your mother and capitalized on what she went thru for your benefit. That is disgusting. Get a real job. Why not go the Olivia Benson SVU avenue?
"There is a huge moral difference because I did exist, and my life would have been ended because I would have been killed by a brutal abortion."
You existed in a very primitive state of no self awareness. The ONLY ONE whose life was almost ended was your mothers. She was early in her pregnancy when she wanted to abort. FAR before fetuses can even feel pain. Quit projecting.
"You can only be killed and your life can only be devalued once you exist. Being thankful that my life was protected in no way makes me pro-rape."
Speaking of devaluing life once it is here, that is EXACTLY what you are doing to your mom and women like her. And it isn't a far cry. You owe your life to rape more than abortion laws, which is a fact you desperately run from. You are having an existential crisis and now every woman in the world has to suffer for it. Good job.
For good reason. Rape is a crime of wanting to have total control over the destiny of another person. To allow abortion is to allow them to regain some autonomy and sense of wellness. Which is crucial to their healing. I am proud to live in a country that has evolved to the point where rape victims have at least some rights under the law.
"Have you ever considered how really insulting it is to say to someone, “I think your mother should have been able to abort you.”?
No because as a pro choice person I think my mom should have been able to have an abortion. And I have spoken and in fact am friends with pre ROE adoptees who are pro choice. They actually say that their mother's life would have been better if she had been able to have an abortion. And it is an argument from existential crisis which is bullcrap. NEXT.
" It’s like saying, “If I had my way, you’d be dead right now."
No, if I had my way your mother wouldn't have been raped in the first place. Way to be full of yourself Rebecca. You are using nothing but emotional manipulation to get your point. SO immature.
"And that is the reality with which I live every time someone says they are pro-choice or pro-life “except in cases of rape” because I absolutely would have been aborted if it had been legal in Michigan when I was an unborn child, and I can tell you that it hurts."
No, it is the reality YOU have created in your own mind due to a lack of self worth. The world is not against you. You are against IT. For you have shrunken the world down to your little existential crisis. So what? Your mother didn't exist just to have you. She had a life and welfare of her own that deserved to be respected. Yes your mother should have been able to get an abortion. That is the whole reason abortion is now legal. So women no longer have to go thru what your mother went thru.
So women no longer have to bear children unwillingly. We are ALL results of circumstances or practices that occured long ago that lead to us being here. It doesn't mean those practices were good or that they should be perpetuated because some of us wouldn't be here now if they hadn't happened.
" I know that most people don’t put a face to this issue — for them abortion is just a concept — with a quick cliche, they sweep it under the rug and forget about it. I do hope that, as a child conceived in rape, I can help to put a face, a voice, and a story to this issue. "
BULLCRAP!!! People definetly put a face to this issue because almost everyone knows someone who has been raped. And even more people know someone who has had an abortion. And what of the ones who DO put a face to this issue, like professionals for example that advocate for the needs of rape survivors? Or do they need YOUR face specifically? You are full of it for saying women have abortions willy nilly. Any rational thinking person knows that is bullcrap. And your statement of "A story" is very accurate. It is A story, not THE story!! I have read accounts of rape victims who got pregnant the same year your mom did and were denied abortions. Let's just say the consequences were bad for everyone involved. Yours is an anecdote. Nothing more. And your voice is a voice for yourself, NOT your mother!!
"In reply, some have said to me, “So does that mean you’re pro-rape?” Though ludicrous, I’ll address it because I understand that they aren’t thinking things through."
You could have fooled me. From the look of it you do NOTHING for rape prevention. The only one not thinking things thru is YOU! You have taken the victimization of your mother and capitalized on what she went thru for your benefit. That is disgusting. Get a real job. Why not go the Olivia Benson SVU avenue?
"There is a huge moral difference because I did exist, and my life would have been ended because I would have been killed by a brutal abortion."
You existed in a very primitive state of no self awareness. The ONLY ONE whose life was almost ended was your mothers. She was early in her pregnancy when she wanted to abort. FAR before fetuses can even feel pain. Quit projecting.
"You can only be killed and your life can only be devalued once you exist. Being thankful that my life was protected in no way makes me pro-rape."
Speaking of devaluing life once it is here, that is EXACTLY what you are doing to your mom and women like her. And it isn't a far cry. You owe your life to rape more than abortion laws, which is a fact you desperately run from. You are having an existential crisis and now every woman in the world has to suffer for it. Good job.
Anti choice rape apologism
http://speakfortheunborn.com/?p=381
"A very common scenario that is mentioned when I discuss abortion is the issue of rape."
For good reason. It happens to thousands of women a year.
"I hear questions like, “How could you expect a woman to bear the child that was conceived in rape?”
That is a legitimate question. Rape takes away power. By forcing her to have a baby you are victimizing her again.
"I have found myself in the last few days in a unique position to address this issue."
You just found out you are pregnant thru a rape? I am sorry to hear that.
"I will begin by saying, I hate rape."
You have an odd way of showing it. If you hate rape you hate the fact that it is about control and power over somebody's sexual autonomy which would include reproduction. You would hate that the person now has to deal with peole in YOUR camp who are gonna try to shame her by making her do what THEY think is right.
"I hate how it perverts the beauty of sex as God intended it. I hate how it destroys the lives of women and their loved ones. And I hate that a man would ever sin so boldly against God and against another human being."
You just made your first mistake. You equate rape with ruining the beauty of sex. Rape isn't sex. It has nothing to do with sex. It is violence and control. It is the fact that you can't seperate the two that lets you justify in your head the continued victimization of these women by making them have babies by their attackers. I do give you props for at least acknowleding that rape ruins lives. It can and sometimes does.
"The uncommon scenario that I found myself in recently began months ago as my wife and I began the adoption process for the second time."
Props for adopting. I wish more people would.
"The months of paperwork, phone calls, and plans led me to Ethiopia to attend court for the adoption of two children."
Sounds like a load of work. But i am sure worth it.
"I write this from my hotel in the capital of Ethiopia, Addis Ababa."
I love to travel. Must be exciting.
"In a completely unexpected turn of events, I found myself sitting in front of the mother of one of the children I was just given custody to in an Ethiopian court."
Am I missing something? What is unexpected if you travelled all the way there to retrieve your children?
"She was young, pretty, kind. I was already in tears just talking to the mother of my baby."
I imagine adopting a baby is alot like that.
"This unexpected conversation took my tears to sobs as I asked about his father. I was told she did not know the father as she had been raped."
Rape is very common in Ethiopia. This is not too surprising.
"Why was I sobbing? You may think because I was not expecting to have a child who had been born as the result of such a terrible thing."
Considering you work to ban abortion in all circumstances, it never occured to you that SOMEBODY would probably have to end up adopting such children? And why the shock? I thought all children are precious.
"Maybe you think it makes him somehow less worthy to be adopted."
You are writing this to your constituents in the anti choice camp. Why would they think that? Unless that is how they secretly feel. You are projecting at best. You are setting up a strawman that says if people support abortion rights for women like his mother we are "anti baby." And I don't think ANY child is unworthy of adoption.
"You would be wrong. It was actually quite the opposite."
Now this is getting interesting.
"Here is a section of my journal that I penned mere minutes after our meeting:"
Oh goodie let's read.
“I asked her about the father and the interpreter told me she did not know who he was, she had been raped. It was quite a blow. A few moments before I knew nothing of my son’s birth. Now I was sitting in front of his mother, a young rape victim…I am so glad we have the opportunity to raise a boy who is one of the neediest. I am so proud of her for doing what was right. I am so sad for her pain. But when she left she seemed happy. Her concern was for her child and now he was being taken care of.”
Doing what is right? What does THAT mean? She did what is right by surviving the rape. THAT is all she needed and needs to be concerned about. And what if she hadn't done what was right? Do you still feel for her pain? Or are you gonna heckle her as a murderer like your constituents often do?
"You see I hate rape, but I do not hate children."
Ladies and gentelmen, our strawman has arrived!! And now I get onto the business of setting it on fire.
NO ONE said anything about hating babies. Abortion is NOT about hating babies.
"And abortion is not killing rape. It does not change what has happened nor bring justice for the woman wronged. "
I'll be right back folks. I have to go to the store real quick to get more lighter fluid. This strawman is bigger than I originally estimated............................................................................................................................................................................ Alright I'm Back. NO ONE is talking about an abortion time machine. What it DOES do is allow a woman to rightfully regain control of her life and stop the men in society of having total control of the female gender.
"Abortion is murder and murder is hatred, hatred against a baby who was innocent in the matter."
And the woman isn't innocent? What is hatred is to not acknowledge what rape victims need and that is choice. And you are TOTALLY victim blaming my making the woman who aborts out to be some sort of monster. And you spout abortion being the equivalent of murder like it is some sort of settled philosophical matter.
"Spain (the baby) is not dirty because his mother was raped."
I have a theory that people make statements like this to psyche themselves out of what they are really thinking. Reverse psychology if you will. I HIGHLY suspect you think deep in your subconscious that your son IS dirty. Which is why you spend your life trying to convince yourself and others otherwise by trying to make women like his mother give birth against their will so you can feel more comfortable. And the fact that you have nothing but emotional strawmen to pull, it just solidifies my theory more.
"He is not less of a human nor created less in the image of God (Genesis 1:27). "
Not relevant to secular law. But I also agree your son has value.
"He is my son. And I love him. And I want to raise him, no matter how he was conceived."
Then go raise him and stop exploiting him to further oppress women.
"Allow our story to challenge you."
First off, it isn't YOUR story. You weren't the one that was raped. And you arn't the rape born child. You are piggy backing on other people's traumas to further your own propaganda. And let THIS blog challenge YOU to examine your true motives and how your rhetoric harms women like Spain's mom.
"Spain’s mother had a lot of options."
Really? In Ethiopia? Did you bother to study that society at all before you went there? 60% of girls will be sexually abused at some point. And what does it matter to YOU if she "had alot of options." You don't want her to have options. You want her to have YOUR option, which is to have a kid. And even if she did have alot of options, she made the one she wanted. I applaud her for doing what is right for her particular circumstance.
" I do not know if a ‘legal, safe abortion’ was one of them."
Precisly my point. The "options" you are referring to in the previous sentence are YOUR options. According to my research, Ethiopia legalized rape abortion in 2006. And thank GOD they did. Literally, thank GOD!!
"But my other son was abandoned by his mother the day after he was born, a similar death sentence."
That is common in countries where abortion is illegal. It is just further proof that antis do not care about the status of women OR children. They know darn well outlawing abortion causes great societal harm. They don't care.
"Instead, she chose to bring this child to term, to take him to an orphanage, and then to walk through the steps to allow us to adopt him."
She chose? You just got done saying you don't know if abortion was even a legal option.
"Then she met with me, she did not have to do that, she chose to. And amidst all of the hardship, she was concerned for the life of her child. And she left happy."
Good for her. Would you like me to introduce you to some women I know who have left an abortion clinic in good spirits? And that to this day are doing great?
"God calls all of us to be like Christ. And Christ ‘made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant…he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death."
Quit shoving JESUS down people's throats. You don't want women to be servants. You want them to be slaves.
"So, yes. I do ask a woman who has been raped to bear the child."
Now I know where Mama Bear Palin must have gotten her " I would counsel them to choose life" spiel from. You wouldn't ASK them to do anything. You would force your will and your wants on her like the rapist did. You would rape her again.
"Not because I long to force my opinion on others."
Bullcrap. And didn't you just get done saying it was GOD's will? Whatever happened to that? Suddenly it is your opinion?
"But instead because killing the child is wrong. It is disobedience to God and it is self-seeking."
No it is self preserving and a natural right of a woman to control her own destiny. And GOD gave us free will. Something rapists don't support and apparently you don't either.
"But oddly enough, this self-seeking action will not bring joy."
Oddly enough? What, like it shouldn't be common knowledge that making a woman have a baby by a rapist would be bad for them? The way you people spout it it should be a glorious occurence. And if it's GOD's will, why would it seem odd for us to follow it? And you are totally full of crap. Numerous organizations have spoken out in favor of rape victims being allowed to abort. Amnesty Interrnational, Louisiana Foundation Against Sexual Assault, Rape Victims Advocates of Chicago Illinois, SAFER ( Students Active for Ending Rape) SLUTWALK and on and on. You know DARN WELL it is all about furthering your agenda at the expense of women. Many famous rape survivors including Marilynn Van Derbur, who actually participated in a survivor led speakout against Ken buck for his no choice stance. So don't give me that crap.
"Joy comes in obedience, humility, and sacrifice. I have witnessed this first-person in the life of this young mother. And it is this joy I wish for all women."
You wish for a world controlled by men where women have no rights to self determination. Sacrifice requires consent, something rapists AND you don't respect.
"Let us stop assuming that we know what is best for these women and start listening to God."
No you want us to listen to YOUR interpretation of what GOD wants. No one is assuming jackass. People are speaking out because they have seen the harm your backwards laws create.
"Let us stop thinking that the death of a child could ever correct the evils of another sin."
And may YOU stop thinking that forcing a woman to have a kid under durress will make it justified. Really now. And it isn't just a sin. It's a felony.
"Let us stop saying that nine months is too much to ask."
This statement is the definition of evil. It isn't 9 months!!! Having a baby lasts forever whether it is given away or not. And those ARNT your 9 months to demand!! And I did say demand not ask!! You arn't asking anyone. Once again because consent isn't in your worldview.
"Let us fix our eyes on Christ who gave for us his life. Let us support women and call them to do what is right. And let us raise these children as our own."
You don't support women. You only support forcing them to do what YOU want! I also find it VERY telling that not ONCE in this post did you say ANYTHING about fighting rape!! I also find it interesting that in the beginning of the post you say rape destroys women's lives but then go on to say "9 months" isn't too much to ask. BLECH!!
You FAIL!!
"A very common scenario that is mentioned when I discuss abortion is the issue of rape."
For good reason. It happens to thousands of women a year.
"I hear questions like, “How could you expect a woman to bear the child that was conceived in rape?”
That is a legitimate question. Rape takes away power. By forcing her to have a baby you are victimizing her again.
"I have found myself in the last few days in a unique position to address this issue."
You just found out you are pregnant thru a rape? I am sorry to hear that.
"I will begin by saying, I hate rape."
You have an odd way of showing it. If you hate rape you hate the fact that it is about control and power over somebody's sexual autonomy which would include reproduction. You would hate that the person now has to deal with peole in YOUR camp who are gonna try to shame her by making her do what THEY think is right.
"I hate how it perverts the beauty of sex as God intended it. I hate how it destroys the lives of women and their loved ones. And I hate that a man would ever sin so boldly against God and against another human being."
You just made your first mistake. You equate rape with ruining the beauty of sex. Rape isn't sex. It has nothing to do with sex. It is violence and control. It is the fact that you can't seperate the two that lets you justify in your head the continued victimization of these women by making them have babies by their attackers. I do give you props for at least acknowleding that rape ruins lives. It can and sometimes does.
"The uncommon scenario that I found myself in recently began months ago as my wife and I began the adoption process for the second time."
Props for adopting. I wish more people would.
"The months of paperwork, phone calls, and plans led me to Ethiopia to attend court for the adoption of two children."
Sounds like a load of work. But i am sure worth it.
"I write this from my hotel in the capital of Ethiopia, Addis Ababa."
I love to travel. Must be exciting.
"In a completely unexpected turn of events, I found myself sitting in front of the mother of one of the children I was just given custody to in an Ethiopian court."
Am I missing something? What is unexpected if you travelled all the way there to retrieve your children?
"She was young, pretty, kind. I was already in tears just talking to the mother of my baby."
I imagine adopting a baby is alot like that.
"This unexpected conversation took my tears to sobs as I asked about his father. I was told she did not know the father as she had been raped."
Rape is very common in Ethiopia. This is not too surprising.
"Why was I sobbing? You may think because I was not expecting to have a child who had been born as the result of such a terrible thing."
Considering you work to ban abortion in all circumstances, it never occured to you that SOMEBODY would probably have to end up adopting such children? And why the shock? I thought all children are precious.
"Maybe you think it makes him somehow less worthy to be adopted."
You are writing this to your constituents in the anti choice camp. Why would they think that? Unless that is how they secretly feel. You are projecting at best. You are setting up a strawman that says if people support abortion rights for women like his mother we are "anti baby." And I don't think ANY child is unworthy of adoption.
"You would be wrong. It was actually quite the opposite."
Now this is getting interesting.
"Here is a section of my journal that I penned mere minutes after our meeting:"
Oh goodie let's read.
“I asked her about the father and the interpreter told me she did not know who he was, she had been raped. It was quite a blow. A few moments before I knew nothing of my son’s birth. Now I was sitting in front of his mother, a young rape victim…I am so glad we have the opportunity to raise a boy who is one of the neediest. I am so proud of her for doing what was right. I am so sad for her pain. But when she left she seemed happy. Her concern was for her child and now he was being taken care of.”
Doing what is right? What does THAT mean? She did what is right by surviving the rape. THAT is all she needed and needs to be concerned about. And what if she hadn't done what was right? Do you still feel for her pain? Or are you gonna heckle her as a murderer like your constituents often do?
"You see I hate rape, but I do not hate children."
Ladies and gentelmen, our strawman has arrived!! And now I get onto the business of setting it on fire.
NO ONE said anything about hating babies. Abortion is NOT about hating babies.
"And abortion is not killing rape. It does not change what has happened nor bring justice for the woman wronged. "
I'll be right back folks. I have to go to the store real quick to get more lighter fluid. This strawman is bigger than I originally estimated............................................................................................................................................................................ Alright I'm Back. NO ONE is talking about an abortion time machine. What it DOES do is allow a woman to rightfully regain control of her life and stop the men in society of having total control of the female gender.
"Abortion is murder and murder is hatred, hatred against a baby who was innocent in the matter."
And the woman isn't innocent? What is hatred is to not acknowledge what rape victims need and that is choice. And you are TOTALLY victim blaming my making the woman who aborts out to be some sort of monster. And you spout abortion being the equivalent of murder like it is some sort of settled philosophical matter.
"Spain (the baby) is not dirty because his mother was raped."
I have a theory that people make statements like this to psyche themselves out of what they are really thinking. Reverse psychology if you will. I HIGHLY suspect you think deep in your subconscious that your son IS dirty. Which is why you spend your life trying to convince yourself and others otherwise by trying to make women like his mother give birth against their will so you can feel more comfortable. And the fact that you have nothing but emotional strawmen to pull, it just solidifies my theory more.
"He is not less of a human nor created less in the image of God (Genesis 1:27). "
Not relevant to secular law. But I also agree your son has value.
"He is my son. And I love him. And I want to raise him, no matter how he was conceived."
Then go raise him and stop exploiting him to further oppress women.
"Allow our story to challenge you."
First off, it isn't YOUR story. You weren't the one that was raped. And you arn't the rape born child. You are piggy backing on other people's traumas to further your own propaganda. And let THIS blog challenge YOU to examine your true motives and how your rhetoric harms women like Spain's mom.
"Spain’s mother had a lot of options."
Really? In Ethiopia? Did you bother to study that society at all before you went there? 60% of girls will be sexually abused at some point. And what does it matter to YOU if she "had alot of options." You don't want her to have options. You want her to have YOUR option, which is to have a kid. And even if she did have alot of options, she made the one she wanted. I applaud her for doing what is right for her particular circumstance.
" I do not know if a ‘legal, safe abortion’ was one of them."
Precisly my point. The "options" you are referring to in the previous sentence are YOUR options. According to my research, Ethiopia legalized rape abortion in 2006. And thank GOD they did. Literally, thank GOD!!
"But my other son was abandoned by his mother the day after he was born, a similar death sentence."
That is common in countries where abortion is illegal. It is just further proof that antis do not care about the status of women OR children. They know darn well outlawing abortion causes great societal harm. They don't care.
"Instead, she chose to bring this child to term, to take him to an orphanage, and then to walk through the steps to allow us to adopt him."
She chose? You just got done saying you don't know if abortion was even a legal option.
"Then she met with me, she did not have to do that, she chose to. And amidst all of the hardship, she was concerned for the life of her child. And she left happy."
Good for her. Would you like me to introduce you to some women I know who have left an abortion clinic in good spirits? And that to this day are doing great?
"God calls all of us to be like Christ. And Christ ‘made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant…he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death."
Quit shoving JESUS down people's throats. You don't want women to be servants. You want them to be slaves.
"So, yes. I do ask a woman who has been raped to bear the child."
Now I know where Mama Bear Palin must have gotten her " I would counsel them to choose life" spiel from. You wouldn't ASK them to do anything. You would force your will and your wants on her like the rapist did. You would rape her again.
"Not because I long to force my opinion on others."
Bullcrap. And didn't you just get done saying it was GOD's will? Whatever happened to that? Suddenly it is your opinion?
"But instead because killing the child is wrong. It is disobedience to God and it is self-seeking."
No it is self preserving and a natural right of a woman to control her own destiny. And GOD gave us free will. Something rapists don't support and apparently you don't either.
"But oddly enough, this self-seeking action will not bring joy."
Oddly enough? What, like it shouldn't be common knowledge that making a woman have a baby by a rapist would be bad for them? The way you people spout it it should be a glorious occurence. And if it's GOD's will, why would it seem odd for us to follow it? And you are totally full of crap. Numerous organizations have spoken out in favor of rape victims being allowed to abort. Amnesty Interrnational, Louisiana Foundation Against Sexual Assault, Rape Victims Advocates of Chicago Illinois, SAFER ( Students Active for Ending Rape) SLUTWALK and on and on. You know DARN WELL it is all about furthering your agenda at the expense of women. Many famous rape survivors including Marilynn Van Derbur, who actually participated in a survivor led speakout against Ken buck for his no choice stance. So don't give me that crap.
"Joy comes in obedience, humility, and sacrifice. I have witnessed this first-person in the life of this young mother. And it is this joy I wish for all women."
You wish for a world controlled by men where women have no rights to self determination. Sacrifice requires consent, something rapists AND you don't respect.
"Let us stop assuming that we know what is best for these women and start listening to God."
No you want us to listen to YOUR interpretation of what GOD wants. No one is assuming jackass. People are speaking out because they have seen the harm your backwards laws create.
"Let us stop thinking that the death of a child could ever correct the evils of another sin."
And may YOU stop thinking that forcing a woman to have a kid under durress will make it justified. Really now. And it isn't just a sin. It's a felony.
"Let us stop saying that nine months is too much to ask."
This statement is the definition of evil. It isn't 9 months!!! Having a baby lasts forever whether it is given away or not. And those ARNT your 9 months to demand!! And I did say demand not ask!! You arn't asking anyone. Once again because consent isn't in your worldview.
"Let us fix our eyes on Christ who gave for us his life. Let us support women and call them to do what is right. And let us raise these children as our own."
You don't support women. You only support forcing them to do what YOU want! I also find it VERY telling that not ONCE in this post did you say ANYTHING about fighting rape!! I also find it interesting that in the beginning of the post you say rape destroys women's lives but then go on to say "9 months" isn't too much to ask. BLECH!!
You FAIL!!
Monday, August 29, 2011
WOW.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4hauS77hD4&feature=relmfu
"Would you like to inspire your audience to do something positive about the negatives in their lives?"
Sure do. And I work towards that every day.
" Or would you like to reach people with a real message that is life changing?"
Yes. Get to the point.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " Negative voices almost destroyed my life."
I would venture to say they won. You now live your life in the shadow of your conception. Working tirelessly to shame and exploit women in difficult circumstances to assuage your guilt about your birth.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " I discovered in 2005 that I was conceived when 8 men attacked my mother."
That would be undoubtedly hard to learn.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " What could have been the end of my life has now become the catalyst for realizing my purpose."
I am taking it your purpose is subjugating rape victims thru fear and intimidation? Because that is what you do.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " My passion is to set people free thru forgiveness and right thinking."
Right thinking being that women should accept their role in life as baby makers because they were attacked by maniacs. You don't want to set anyone free. You are all about bondage. If there is ANYONE you are trying to "set free" it is yourself. Setting yourself free from the self imposed prison of existential crisis.
(JUDA SPEAKING) "GOD has a plan for each one of us. He knows you by name, he knows every hair on your head."
I do believe GOD can use anyone's life for good.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " It doesn't matter where you began because look around no one can tell where you came from."
Agreed.
She then goes on to speak at length about how she wants to set people free from despair. Very strange considering on her abortion videos she regularly tells women who post about their non regretted abortions that they should feel sad and guilty.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " Children are a blessing period. And so what if, when this woman, who has been raped and has gone thru this horrible horrible torture, what if GOD looked down at her and said 'Oh my heart breaks. I'm gonna give her a baby. Maybe that would make it better."
WOW, just WOW. You think EVERY rape victims that is impregnated thinks that way? And it is just sick to think GOD uses rape as an instrument of blessing.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " This is my hearts passion, that people would know they have freedom."
I don't believe that for a second. Your hearts passion is to soothe your wounded psyche over the circumstances of your conception.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " I am exposing the voices that try to destroy us all."
And I count you in those voices that are threatening to destroy. Which is why I am working to expose YOU.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " If we evolved how come we arn't getting all upset because there is a dead dog on the road. How come you don't see those evolutionists jump out of the car and say oh there's my grandfather. Stop the traffic."
WOW again. You know NOTHING of evolutionary theory do you? JEES LOUISE. And I have seen PLENTY of people get upset over dead dogs lady. I really hope you arn't a pet guardian. And what is with the theatrics? You are just like the others in your "rape conceived caucas." Attention whores to the max.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " Maybe I am worthless, maybe I was a mistake. But then I knew I had given my life to CHRIST and it had to be worth something."
I agree that your life is worth something. All of our lives are. But this quote of yours is SOOO telling. You want to talk about exposing? Well, you just did. This is all about your sense of worthlessness. THAT is why you do what you do by stamping out abortion rights.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " I'm Juda Myers, conceived in rape, living with purpose."
This is so sad. You have made your whole identity as being the result of rape. And because you are hurt by that knowledge you work to end the rights of rape survivors to reclaim their rights to dignity by not being subjected to another life changing event. Way to be full of yourself and what a great way to 'release the captives'. BLECH!!
"Would you like to inspire your audience to do something positive about the negatives in their lives?"
Sure do. And I work towards that every day.
" Or would you like to reach people with a real message that is life changing?"
Yes. Get to the point.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " Negative voices almost destroyed my life."
I would venture to say they won. You now live your life in the shadow of your conception. Working tirelessly to shame and exploit women in difficult circumstances to assuage your guilt about your birth.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " I discovered in 2005 that I was conceived when 8 men attacked my mother."
That would be undoubtedly hard to learn.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " What could have been the end of my life has now become the catalyst for realizing my purpose."
I am taking it your purpose is subjugating rape victims thru fear and intimidation? Because that is what you do.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " My passion is to set people free thru forgiveness and right thinking."
Right thinking being that women should accept their role in life as baby makers because they were attacked by maniacs. You don't want to set anyone free. You are all about bondage. If there is ANYONE you are trying to "set free" it is yourself. Setting yourself free from the self imposed prison of existential crisis.
(JUDA SPEAKING) "GOD has a plan for each one of us. He knows you by name, he knows every hair on your head."
I do believe GOD can use anyone's life for good.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " It doesn't matter where you began because look around no one can tell where you came from."
Agreed.
She then goes on to speak at length about how she wants to set people free from despair. Very strange considering on her abortion videos she regularly tells women who post about their non regretted abortions that they should feel sad and guilty.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " Children are a blessing period. And so what if, when this woman, who has been raped and has gone thru this horrible horrible torture, what if GOD looked down at her and said 'Oh my heart breaks. I'm gonna give her a baby. Maybe that would make it better."
WOW, just WOW. You think EVERY rape victims that is impregnated thinks that way? And it is just sick to think GOD uses rape as an instrument of blessing.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " This is my hearts passion, that people would know they have freedom."
I don't believe that for a second. Your hearts passion is to soothe your wounded psyche over the circumstances of your conception.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " I am exposing the voices that try to destroy us all."
And I count you in those voices that are threatening to destroy. Which is why I am working to expose YOU.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " If we evolved how come we arn't getting all upset because there is a dead dog on the road. How come you don't see those evolutionists jump out of the car and say oh there's my grandfather. Stop the traffic."
WOW again. You know NOTHING of evolutionary theory do you? JEES LOUISE. And I have seen PLENTY of people get upset over dead dogs lady. I really hope you arn't a pet guardian. And what is with the theatrics? You are just like the others in your "rape conceived caucas." Attention whores to the max.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " Maybe I am worthless, maybe I was a mistake. But then I knew I had given my life to CHRIST and it had to be worth something."
I agree that your life is worth something. All of our lives are. But this quote of yours is SOOO telling. You want to talk about exposing? Well, you just did. This is all about your sense of worthlessness. THAT is why you do what you do by stamping out abortion rights.
(JUDA SPEAKING) " I'm Juda Myers, conceived in rape, living with purpose."
This is so sad. You have made your whole identity as being the result of rape. And because you are hurt by that knowledge you work to end the rights of rape survivors to reclaim their rights to dignity by not being subjected to another life changing event. Way to be full of yourself and what a great way to 'release the captives'. BLECH!!
Defeating rape culture ( one right winger at a time.)
http://www.gotquestions.org/Deuteronomy-22-28-29-marry-rapist.html
Question: "Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 command a rape victim to marry her rapist?"
Let's keep reading to find out shall we?
"Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is often pointed to by atheists, skeptics, and other Bible attackers as evidence that the Bible is backwards, cruel, and misogynist, and therefore, not the word of GOD."
I can understand why
"Deuteronomy 22:28-29 reads, “If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.”
I find it interesting that it says HE can never divorce her. It is highly probable that he wouldn't even want to. Why not stick around and torture her further?
"At first glance, this passage seems to command that a rape victim must marry her rapist. Is that the correct interpretation of the text, and if so, how is that not horribly unfair to the woman?"
If that is the true meaning of the passage, then it most DEFINETLY is.
"First, it is important to recognize the preceding context."
Agreed. Context is key.
"Deuteronomy 22:22 commands the death penalty for adultery; both the man and the woman are to be put to death."
By modern standards, that isn't exactly an improvement. That's not to say that modern standards are always right. I am just stating that if you are trying to convince people that the bible is not outdated for our time, you are doing a bad job.
"Deutoronomy 22: 23-24 commands the death penalty for both the man and the woman in an instance of a man having sex with a woman who is betrothed (engaged). It seems to be speaking of consensual sex, since the woman does not cry out for help."
WOW, just WOW. So what if she isn't engaged? Is it still a crime? This all goes back to patriarchal control and the archaic attitude of rape being an affront to the men in the family who "own" the women. And cry out? What do you mean by that? How much of a struggle does she have to put up? And what if she is unconscious? What if she is too frightened to fight back?
" Deuturonomy 22:25-27 seemingly commands the death penalty for a man who “rapes” a woman who is betrothed."
Not comfortable at all with you putting rape in paranthesis. And I agree that rapists deserve death. And for the record, I don't think the woman has to be betrothed for it to be a crime.
"Second, it is important to understand that the Hebrew words used in Deuteronomy 22, verses 25 and 28 do not necessarily indicate rape."
That is certainly a relief. But why didn't they make that clear then?
"In verse 25, the Hebrew word chazaq is used, and it essentially means “seize,” or “take hold of."
Sounds like rape to me.
"In verse 28, a different Hebrew word taphas is used, and while it has a very similar meaning to chazaq, it is not the same word."
The case against this not being rape apologist is not looking good.
"In both verses 25 and 28, the Hebrew word shakab is used, and while it literally means “lie down,” it is used throughout the Old Testament to refer to sexual intercourse. So, both verses 25 and 28 describe a man seizing and having sex with a woman."
Which would be rape nincompoop!
"While this is a possible description of rape, it does not explicitly refer to rape."
See previous post. And the fact that we even have to discuss whether or not this scripture is condoning rape is hideous and very telling.
"Also, the differences in the Hebrew words between Deuteronomy 22, verses 25 and 28, could be interpreted as verse 25 referring to rape, with verse 28 referring to consensual sex."
Why would they be talking about two different subjects?
"Further, in other Old Testament passages that refer to rape, different Hebrew words are used (Judges 19:25, 20:5; 2 Samuel 13:14, 32; Zechariah 14:2)."
Fair enough.
"Third, we should not read the modern image of a violent rape into Deuteronomy 22:28-29."
The frick!?!! What is that supposed to mean? Now I know where the "forcible rape" abortion bill almost passed in congress this year came from. And only recently has date rape even started to be acknowledged. In many countries it still isn't both legally and culturally.
"The passage gives very few details in regards to what is being described. All it describes is a man seizing a woman and having sex with her."
That is ALL it describes? Even if that was "all" it described, that would be enough jackass!!
"To automatically assume that it was a violent encounter with the man brutally attacking the woman is not biblically supportable."
Rape IS a violent encounter period!! It is a violent encounter because it is taking control of a woman's body and life in an invasive and traumatic manner. And what about the instances of rape where it IS physically violent? Does this still apply?
"It could just as easily be describing a man forcing a woman, with whom he was romantically involved but not betrothed, to have sex with him before she was willing/ready. While that would still be rape, there are definitely different degrees of rape and different amounts of violence that occur in connection with rape."
Irrelevant. Rape is rape. To say there are different degrees of rape is stupid and heinous. And even if it wasn't as violent as it could be, making her marry him is still wrong.
"In 2 Samuel 13, Amnon, a son of David, rapes his half-sister, Tamar. Tamar was not forced to marry Amnon. Interestingly, though, Tamar seemed to have wanted to marry Amnon after the rape."
From my research into middle eastern culture, I can see why she would. She must have been soo desperate. I have read that passage. It is horrible. I always felt so bad for Tamar. And whether or not she wanted to marry him doesn't mean she should have married him and it sure as hades doesn't justify forcing her to. And don't tell me that there weren't rape victims back then that didn't fight this crap.
"Why would she desire such a thing? In that culture, virginity was highly prized."
And in your backwards caveman existence, a woman's purity is still of utmost importance. Hence the purity ball tradition. But that is a blog for another time.
"It would have been very difficult for a woman who was not a virgin, and especially a woman who had been raped, to find a man to marry her."
I think the whole terminology of virgin needs to be gotten rid of. And this just goes to show how you view women. Especially if she had been raped? Why would the fact that she had carnal knowlede against her will make a difference? It all goes back to rape culture. And the fact that women are having difficulty finding husbands because of "lack of virtue" is a fault on the society not the women.
"It seems that Tamar would have rather married Amnon than live desolate and single the rest of her life, which is what happened to her."
Devastating. Absolutely devastating. And how many more "Tamars" do there have to be before our global society wakes up and starts valuing women for being themselves and not judging them on their sexual history?
"So, if Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is interpreted to mean that an un-betrothed rape victim must marry her rapist, it could be viewed as merciful to the woman, who, because of the rape, would be considered unmarriageable."
Screw that!!!! Women in many countries are STILL being forced to marry rapists because they still adhere to that stupid viewpoint. A viewpoint I have VERY little doubt you hold as well.
"In that culture, a woman without a husband would have a very difficult time providing for herself. Unmarried women often had no choice but to sell themselves into slavery or prostitution just to survive."
It is still like that around the world. And those of us who give a crap are working to change that. Join us won't you?
"It should also be noted that the Old Testament nowhere records a rape victim being forced to marry her rapist. "
Literally, thank GOD for that.
"Even if that is the correct interpretation of Deuteronomy 22:28-29, the Bible nowhere records the command being enforced."
What is the point of making a command that won't be enforced anyway?
"Further, if a rape victim being forced to marry her rapist is the correct interpretation, it must be viewed in light of the culture of the time."
I agree that historical context is key. That is my point though. If we are going to study scripture, we must understand if it was for a specific time and people, if it was truly meant at all in the way we are perceiving it.
"In the case of Tamar, she would rather have married her rapist than remain single the rest of her life. Reading modern Western societal mores into ancient Israel warps the meaning of the passage."
I love how you refer to it as western. Which brings me back to my point. Since this behavior is still practiced around the world, do you condone it today? And it isn't social mores. It is basic decency. Please learn it.
"Lastly, if Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is interpreted as referring to rape, it clearly requires restitution from/punishment for the man who rapes a young woman that is not betrothed. "
A flimsy punishment at that. It pays off the father for his "property damage" and simply passes the woman of as chattel to her next owner.
"That punishment consisted of two parts: he must pay the woman’s father fifty shekels of silver and he must marry and support the woman for the rest of her life."
What about putting him in jail? How about that What about an apology? And NOBODY better try to put a monetary price tag on me!!
"Fifty shekels of silver was a very substantial fine as at that time a shekel was a measurement of weight and not an actual coin. Some scholars believe it could have represented as much as 10 years of wages for the average person."
Do you even listen to yourself? You are trying to justify forced marriage based upon monetary compensation. Get a grip!!! I don't give a rats nutsack how much money the jerk would be forced to pay. It would still be wrong.
"The fact that a man was in any way punished for rape was revolutionary for that period of time in history."
Progress is slow I will acknowledge that. Thankfully progress doesn't stop. Since that passage was written we have made even MORE progress. Like not making victims marry their assailants for instance. I am also curious if this punishment is STILL in place.
"No other ancient legal system punished rape to anywhere near the degree outlined in Deuteronomy 22:22."
And what does that tell you? That women have and continue to be viewed as chattel. But no matter how "revolutionary" this was for its time period, it fell and continues to fall unacceptably short.
"While it is unrealistic to say that because of this command rape never occurred, hopefully the severity of the punishment was a strong deterrent to the exceedingly evil act of rape. "
Hopefully? Yeah, go look at the countries where this type of crap still occurs and tell me if rape is rare there. And the only way to deter rape is to form a society that doesn't encourage or condone it. Do you do that?
"So, back to the question at hand: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 command a rape victim to marry her rapist? While that is a possible, perhaps even likely, interpretation of the passage, it is not the only possible interpretation. "
I agree that scripture has different interpretations. I have my own beliefs about certain passages and the BIBLE itself. I get chills over your admission that it is the likely interpretation.
"Even if Deuteronomy 22:28-29 does command a rape victim to marry her rapist, it is crucial to remember that such a fate, as difficult as it would be, was, at least for some, much better than the alternatives."
It wouldn't be difficult. I think the word you are looking for is abusive. And at least for some? What about the ones it wasn't better for Are they collateral damage?. And what exactly constitutes some? And once again, if this was really from GOD and not tained by human minds, why not just go ahead and speak out against rape culture period? I also find it kind of interesting that to my knowledge there are no passages that directly admonish men not to do the raping in the first place.
You FAIL!!
Question: "Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 command a rape victim to marry her rapist?"
Let's keep reading to find out shall we?
"Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is often pointed to by atheists, skeptics, and other Bible attackers as evidence that the Bible is backwards, cruel, and misogynist, and therefore, not the word of GOD."
I can understand why
"Deuteronomy 22:28-29 reads, “If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.”
I find it interesting that it says HE can never divorce her. It is highly probable that he wouldn't even want to. Why not stick around and torture her further?
"At first glance, this passage seems to command that a rape victim must marry her rapist. Is that the correct interpretation of the text, and if so, how is that not horribly unfair to the woman?"
If that is the true meaning of the passage, then it most DEFINETLY is.
"First, it is important to recognize the preceding context."
Agreed. Context is key.
"Deuteronomy 22:22 commands the death penalty for adultery; both the man and the woman are to be put to death."
By modern standards, that isn't exactly an improvement. That's not to say that modern standards are always right. I am just stating that if you are trying to convince people that the bible is not outdated for our time, you are doing a bad job.
"Deutoronomy 22: 23-24 commands the death penalty for both the man and the woman in an instance of a man having sex with a woman who is betrothed (engaged). It seems to be speaking of consensual sex, since the woman does not cry out for help."
WOW, just WOW. So what if she isn't engaged? Is it still a crime? This all goes back to patriarchal control and the archaic attitude of rape being an affront to the men in the family who "own" the women. And cry out? What do you mean by that? How much of a struggle does she have to put up? And what if she is unconscious? What if she is too frightened to fight back?
" Deuturonomy 22:25-27 seemingly commands the death penalty for a man who “rapes” a woman who is betrothed."
Not comfortable at all with you putting rape in paranthesis. And I agree that rapists deserve death. And for the record, I don't think the woman has to be betrothed for it to be a crime.
"Second, it is important to understand that the Hebrew words used in Deuteronomy 22, verses 25 and 28 do not necessarily indicate rape."
That is certainly a relief. But why didn't they make that clear then?
"In verse 25, the Hebrew word chazaq is used, and it essentially means “seize,” or “take hold of."
Sounds like rape to me.
"In verse 28, a different Hebrew word taphas is used, and while it has a very similar meaning to chazaq, it is not the same word."
The case against this not being rape apologist is not looking good.
"In both verses 25 and 28, the Hebrew word shakab is used, and while it literally means “lie down,” it is used throughout the Old Testament to refer to sexual intercourse. So, both verses 25 and 28 describe a man seizing and having sex with a woman."
Which would be rape nincompoop!
"While this is a possible description of rape, it does not explicitly refer to rape."
See previous post. And the fact that we even have to discuss whether or not this scripture is condoning rape is hideous and very telling.
"Also, the differences in the Hebrew words between Deuteronomy 22, verses 25 and 28, could be interpreted as verse 25 referring to rape, with verse 28 referring to consensual sex."
Why would they be talking about two different subjects?
"Further, in other Old Testament passages that refer to rape, different Hebrew words are used (Judges 19:25, 20:5; 2 Samuel 13:14, 32; Zechariah 14:2)."
Fair enough.
"Third, we should not read the modern image of a violent rape into Deuteronomy 22:28-29."
The frick!?!! What is that supposed to mean? Now I know where the "forcible rape" abortion bill almost passed in congress this year came from. And only recently has date rape even started to be acknowledged. In many countries it still isn't both legally and culturally.
"The passage gives very few details in regards to what is being described. All it describes is a man seizing a woman and having sex with her."
That is ALL it describes? Even if that was "all" it described, that would be enough jackass!!
"To automatically assume that it was a violent encounter with the man brutally attacking the woman is not biblically supportable."
Rape IS a violent encounter period!! It is a violent encounter because it is taking control of a woman's body and life in an invasive and traumatic manner. And what about the instances of rape where it IS physically violent? Does this still apply?
"It could just as easily be describing a man forcing a woman, with whom he was romantically involved but not betrothed, to have sex with him before she was willing/ready. While that would still be rape, there are definitely different degrees of rape and different amounts of violence that occur in connection with rape."
Irrelevant. Rape is rape. To say there are different degrees of rape is stupid and heinous. And even if it wasn't as violent as it could be, making her marry him is still wrong.
"In 2 Samuel 13, Amnon, a son of David, rapes his half-sister, Tamar. Tamar was not forced to marry Amnon. Interestingly, though, Tamar seemed to have wanted to marry Amnon after the rape."
From my research into middle eastern culture, I can see why she would. She must have been soo desperate. I have read that passage. It is horrible. I always felt so bad for Tamar. And whether or not she wanted to marry him doesn't mean she should have married him and it sure as hades doesn't justify forcing her to. And don't tell me that there weren't rape victims back then that didn't fight this crap.
"Why would she desire such a thing? In that culture, virginity was highly prized."
And in your backwards caveman existence, a woman's purity is still of utmost importance. Hence the purity ball tradition. But that is a blog for another time.
"It would have been very difficult for a woman who was not a virgin, and especially a woman who had been raped, to find a man to marry her."
I think the whole terminology of virgin needs to be gotten rid of. And this just goes to show how you view women. Especially if she had been raped? Why would the fact that she had carnal knowlede against her will make a difference? It all goes back to rape culture. And the fact that women are having difficulty finding husbands because of "lack of virtue" is a fault on the society not the women.
"It seems that Tamar would have rather married Amnon than live desolate and single the rest of her life, which is what happened to her."
Devastating. Absolutely devastating. And how many more "Tamars" do there have to be before our global society wakes up and starts valuing women for being themselves and not judging them on their sexual history?
"So, if Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is interpreted to mean that an un-betrothed rape victim must marry her rapist, it could be viewed as merciful to the woman, who, because of the rape, would be considered unmarriageable."
Screw that!!!! Women in many countries are STILL being forced to marry rapists because they still adhere to that stupid viewpoint. A viewpoint I have VERY little doubt you hold as well.
"In that culture, a woman without a husband would have a very difficult time providing for herself. Unmarried women often had no choice but to sell themselves into slavery or prostitution just to survive."
It is still like that around the world. And those of us who give a crap are working to change that. Join us won't you?
"It should also be noted that the Old Testament nowhere records a rape victim being forced to marry her rapist. "
Literally, thank GOD for that.
"Even if that is the correct interpretation of Deuteronomy 22:28-29, the Bible nowhere records the command being enforced."
What is the point of making a command that won't be enforced anyway?
"Further, if a rape victim being forced to marry her rapist is the correct interpretation, it must be viewed in light of the culture of the time."
I agree that historical context is key. That is my point though. If we are going to study scripture, we must understand if it was for a specific time and people, if it was truly meant at all in the way we are perceiving it.
"In the case of Tamar, she would rather have married her rapist than remain single the rest of her life. Reading modern Western societal mores into ancient Israel warps the meaning of the passage."
I love how you refer to it as western. Which brings me back to my point. Since this behavior is still practiced around the world, do you condone it today? And it isn't social mores. It is basic decency. Please learn it.
"Lastly, if Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is interpreted as referring to rape, it clearly requires restitution from/punishment for the man who rapes a young woman that is not betrothed. "
A flimsy punishment at that. It pays off the father for his "property damage" and simply passes the woman of as chattel to her next owner.
"That punishment consisted of two parts: he must pay the woman’s father fifty shekels of silver and he must marry and support the woman for the rest of her life."
What about putting him in jail? How about that What about an apology? And NOBODY better try to put a monetary price tag on me!!
"Fifty shekels of silver was a very substantial fine as at that time a shekel was a measurement of weight and not an actual coin. Some scholars believe it could have represented as much as 10 years of wages for the average person."
Do you even listen to yourself? You are trying to justify forced marriage based upon monetary compensation. Get a grip!!! I don't give a rats nutsack how much money the jerk would be forced to pay. It would still be wrong.
"The fact that a man was in any way punished for rape was revolutionary for that period of time in history."
Progress is slow I will acknowledge that. Thankfully progress doesn't stop. Since that passage was written we have made even MORE progress. Like not making victims marry their assailants for instance. I am also curious if this punishment is STILL in place.
"No other ancient legal system punished rape to anywhere near the degree outlined in Deuteronomy 22:22."
And what does that tell you? That women have and continue to be viewed as chattel. But no matter how "revolutionary" this was for its time period, it fell and continues to fall unacceptably short.
"While it is unrealistic to say that because of this command rape never occurred, hopefully the severity of the punishment was a strong deterrent to the exceedingly evil act of rape. "
Hopefully? Yeah, go look at the countries where this type of crap still occurs and tell me if rape is rare there. And the only way to deter rape is to form a society that doesn't encourage or condone it. Do you do that?
"So, back to the question at hand: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 command a rape victim to marry her rapist? While that is a possible, perhaps even likely, interpretation of the passage, it is not the only possible interpretation. "
I agree that scripture has different interpretations. I have my own beliefs about certain passages and the BIBLE itself. I get chills over your admission that it is the likely interpretation.
"Even if Deuteronomy 22:28-29 does command a rape victim to marry her rapist, it is crucial to remember that such a fate, as difficult as it would be, was, at least for some, much better than the alternatives."
It wouldn't be difficult. I think the word you are looking for is abusive. And at least for some? What about the ones it wasn't better for Are they collateral damage?. And what exactly constitutes some? And once again, if this was really from GOD and not tained by human minds, why not just go ahead and speak out against rape culture period? I also find it kind of interesting that to my knowledge there are no passages that directly admonish men not to do the raping in the first place.
You FAIL!!
The Mel Gibsons of Anti Choice: " Birth me bitch cause I deserve it!!
http://www.choicetolive.com/welcome-abortion-survivors
"If you are reading this, YOU are a survivor!"
I am a survivor of many things, but abortion isn't one of them.
"Thank God every day for giving you a mother who allowed you to be born! Thank your mother for allowing you to be born! "
What if a person doesn't believe in GOD? Who should they be thanking then? And did GOD make a mistake by giving aborted embryos the wrong type of mother? I thank my mom every day but not for birthing me. I thank her for being her.
"It doesn't matter whether you were born before Janary 22, 1973 or when your state legalized child sacrifice."
All anti choicers have is emotional rhetoric and emotional appeals. And you want to know what I DO give thanks every day for? That I live in a country where I am free to make my own choices.
"Since some who favor legalized abortion talk about back alley abortions prior to legalized infanticide, YOU could have been one of them."
It isn't only pro choicers who talk about illegal abortions. And I love how you just totally gloss over the horror that a back alley abortion can and does entail. Yes, my mom COULD have had an abortion. It didn't happen though. So what if it had?
"If you were born AFTER January 22, 1973, you should be even more thankful. UNLIKE more than 45 million fellow human beings, YOUR right to life was actually acknowledged."
Considering many post- roe people have had abortions, your argument doesnt stand. And my rights were acknowledged. That is why it was legalized in the first place. Because society finally started to acknowledge that women were more than baby factories. That they deserved more out of life.
You FAIL!!
"If you are reading this, YOU are a survivor!"
I am a survivor of many things, but abortion isn't one of them.
"Thank God every day for giving you a mother who allowed you to be born! Thank your mother for allowing you to be born! "
What if a person doesn't believe in GOD? Who should they be thanking then? And did GOD make a mistake by giving aborted embryos the wrong type of mother? I thank my mom every day but not for birthing me. I thank her for being her.
"It doesn't matter whether you were born before Janary 22, 1973 or when your state legalized child sacrifice."
All anti choicers have is emotional rhetoric and emotional appeals. And you want to know what I DO give thanks every day for? That I live in a country where I am free to make my own choices.
"Since some who favor legalized abortion talk about back alley abortions prior to legalized infanticide, YOU could have been one of them."
It isn't only pro choicers who talk about illegal abortions. And I love how you just totally gloss over the horror that a back alley abortion can and does entail. Yes, my mom COULD have had an abortion. It didn't happen though. So what if it had?
"If you were born AFTER January 22, 1973, you should be even more thankful. UNLIKE more than 45 million fellow human beings, YOUR right to life was actually acknowledged."
Considering many post- roe people have had abortions, your argument doesnt stand. And my rights were acknowledged. That is why it was legalized in the first place. Because society finally started to acknowledge that women were more than baby factories. That they deserved more out of life.
You FAIL!!
Wednesday, August 10, 2011
If you are not outraged, you are not paying attention
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1548024074#!/OMPOW
There is a new posse in town folks!! And we are called One Million Pissed Off Women. We formed this past April in response to the republican attacks on women's health and rights in America although since our founding we have begun to encompass many more progressive values and have incorporated a worldwide focus. We are a group of women AND men from around the world dedicated to advancing the cause of freedom. Freedom to marry or not to marry. Freedom to have kids or not have kids. Freedom from violence and oppression in all its many forms. We will not stop, we will not rest and we will not shut up until every person on this planet can live a free and respectable existence. Join us wont you? If you are on facebook, type in One Million Pissed Off Women and click the like button. We will be there to welcome you :)
There is a new posse in town folks!! And we are called One Million Pissed Off Women. We formed this past April in response to the republican attacks on women's health and rights in America although since our founding we have begun to encompass many more progressive values and have incorporated a worldwide focus. We are a group of women AND men from around the world dedicated to advancing the cause of freedom. Freedom to marry or not to marry. Freedom to have kids or not have kids. Freedom from violence and oppression in all its many forms. We will not stop, we will not rest and we will not shut up until every person on this planet can live a free and respectable existence. Join us wont you? If you are on facebook, type in One Million Pissed Off Women and click the like button. We will be there to welcome you :)
Are you not sorry? You have no reason to be
http://www.imnotsorry.net/
Have you had an abortion? Have you been involved in an abortion, whether as a parent, partner or friend? Are you unashamed and grateful that you made that choice? You are not alone. Millions of women thruout history and around the world have made that decision and, like you, do not regret it. Millions have even been benefited in ways they would not have foreseen by being able to finish careers or education initiatives, escape abusive relationships, and to live lives of equality and peace. Women from every walk of life have abortions. Religious women, young women, single women, educated women, women who already have children, you name it. The decision to terminate a pregnancy is a moral, wise choice for many women who are faced with a situation that is unique to them. No one but a woman facing this decision knows what is best or what her particular needs are. No one but a woman facing this choice knows what she can handle and what a particular pregnancy outcome would mean for her life. No one but a woman facing the decision of abortion has the right to dictate whether or not an abortion should take place. Elaenor Roosevelt said it best, " No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." It is as true in the abortion experience as any other. No one can make you feel guilty about your decision of abortion unless you let them. There will be many people who will look at you with disdain for choosing abortion as there will be for any other choice you might make regarding just about any life decision. The problem lies not with you but with them, for they are the ones that have the problem of needing to control and dictate the course of someone else's life instead of focusing on their own. It is easy to sit back and judge a situation one is not personally experiencing. So it goes with abortion stigma. So many people look at women who abort as if it is a frivilous decision on their part without careful thought put into it. Nothing could be farther from the truth. There will ALWAYS be people who will look at your decision to abort as a moral weakness on your part. But the truth is, the moral weakness lies with them, for who are they to judge whether or not you are prepared for the enormous task of having a child? Real moral strength lies in facing tough decisions head on and making decisions that are difficult no matter the outcome. It takes bravery to deal with a pregnancy in any fashion. Deciding to end one is a courageous choice that no woman wishes to ever have to face. But we do not live in a perfect world and people are not perfect. If you are reading this and you have had an abortion, know that I admire you for having the wisdom and self determination to do what is best for you and your future. Fight on.
Have you had an abortion? Have you been involved in an abortion, whether as a parent, partner or friend? Are you unashamed and grateful that you made that choice? You are not alone. Millions of women thruout history and around the world have made that decision and, like you, do not regret it. Millions have even been benefited in ways they would not have foreseen by being able to finish careers or education initiatives, escape abusive relationships, and to live lives of equality and peace. Women from every walk of life have abortions. Religious women, young women, single women, educated women, women who already have children, you name it. The decision to terminate a pregnancy is a moral, wise choice for many women who are faced with a situation that is unique to them. No one but a woman facing this decision knows what is best or what her particular needs are. No one but a woman facing this choice knows what she can handle and what a particular pregnancy outcome would mean for her life. No one but a woman facing the decision of abortion has the right to dictate whether or not an abortion should take place. Elaenor Roosevelt said it best, " No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." It is as true in the abortion experience as any other. No one can make you feel guilty about your decision of abortion unless you let them. There will be many people who will look at you with disdain for choosing abortion as there will be for any other choice you might make regarding just about any life decision. The problem lies not with you but with them, for they are the ones that have the problem of needing to control and dictate the course of someone else's life instead of focusing on their own. It is easy to sit back and judge a situation one is not personally experiencing. So it goes with abortion stigma. So many people look at women who abort as if it is a frivilous decision on their part without careful thought put into it. Nothing could be farther from the truth. There will ALWAYS be people who will look at your decision to abort as a moral weakness on your part. But the truth is, the moral weakness lies with them, for who are they to judge whether or not you are prepared for the enormous task of having a child? Real moral strength lies in facing tough decisions head on and making decisions that are difficult no matter the outcome. It takes bravery to deal with a pregnancy in any fashion. Deciding to end one is a courageous choice that no woman wishes to ever have to face. But we do not live in a perfect world and people are not perfect. If you are reading this and you have had an abortion, know that I admire you for having the wisdom and self determination to do what is best for you and your future. Fight on.
Saturday, August 6, 2011
To the "CHRISTIAN" RIGHT
Looks like I got myself a hater folks :) He goes by the name of John Trandem. I am new to the blogpost format and am having difficulty responding in the comments section so until I learn I will just respond in this manner. If you want to know what he said, go to my post of "Why I Respond".
Anyway, onto the subject at hand. First off, sir, you say I am being visceral when you accuse me of having never read the bible because I support legal abortion. Don't accuse me of being arrogant when you are the one making such claims. There are PLENTY of pro choice people of faith. And I still wonder. Why is religion even coming up in this debate? It has ZERO to do with legislative policy. I have seen what religiously motivated political parties do and it isn't pretty. All one needs to do is look to theocratic countries to see the mess it creates. YOU accuse me of not being rational because I don't think religion should be brought up at all in this debate. I am "visceral" in the sense that injustice enrages me especially when it involves oppression against minorities, minorities being defined as any group that is largely marginalized in society EX. women. For far too long religion has been used as a means to "keep women in their place" sort of speak. And what better way to do that than to control her reproductive life. Yes, I am a college student sir. I have taken biology. I have researched this topic in depth and I know the science and arguments behind it. What needs to be acknowledged though is the fact that abortion is a necessary part of human society at this point in our history. Contraceptives are not yet perfect. Until they are and they are available to every man and women that needs them, free of charge, abortion will be needed as a second measure. This is a matter of women being able to control their fertility and thereby her destiny. There is no society that is better off with banning abortion. And ESPECIALLY no society that deems women as equals. Do you honestly think I just came to the decision to be pro choice lightly? That I haven't heard the same rhetoric you spout now a million times over? Trust me I have. I have seen firsthand in other people's lives the good access to legal abortion can and does do. I have no shame in saying that I think society would be better if more people would be responsible with their reproductive lives by using effective birth control and when necessary abortion. I have seen the devastation unplanned and unprepared parenthood wreckes on generations of people. I celebrate the fact that American society at least has progressed beyond the point of making a woman have a child against her will in any context. And the motives I assign to Rebecca are mostly her own admissions. It isn't hard. I have a friend who is a sociology major. She critiqued Rebecca and came up with the same conclusions. Everyone I have shown her videos too so far has done the same. Rebecca knows darn well what she is doing is harmful to countless victims around the world. She does not care because the only thing that matters is her need to feel important is reaffirmed. I will continue to stand up to the likes of you and others who wish to keep women in bondage to misfortunes that befall them. I will work to ensure that women have the ability to plan their families by having access to both birth control AND abortion.
Anyway, onto the subject at hand. First off, sir, you say I am being visceral when you accuse me of having never read the bible because I support legal abortion. Don't accuse me of being arrogant when you are the one making such claims. There are PLENTY of pro choice people of faith. And I still wonder. Why is religion even coming up in this debate? It has ZERO to do with legislative policy. I have seen what religiously motivated political parties do and it isn't pretty. All one needs to do is look to theocratic countries to see the mess it creates. YOU accuse me of not being rational because I don't think religion should be brought up at all in this debate. I am "visceral" in the sense that injustice enrages me especially when it involves oppression against minorities, minorities being defined as any group that is largely marginalized in society EX. women. For far too long religion has been used as a means to "keep women in their place" sort of speak. And what better way to do that than to control her reproductive life. Yes, I am a college student sir. I have taken biology. I have researched this topic in depth and I know the science and arguments behind it. What needs to be acknowledged though is the fact that abortion is a necessary part of human society at this point in our history. Contraceptives are not yet perfect. Until they are and they are available to every man and women that needs them, free of charge, abortion will be needed as a second measure. This is a matter of women being able to control their fertility and thereby her destiny. There is no society that is better off with banning abortion. And ESPECIALLY no society that deems women as equals. Do you honestly think I just came to the decision to be pro choice lightly? That I haven't heard the same rhetoric you spout now a million times over? Trust me I have. I have seen firsthand in other people's lives the good access to legal abortion can and does do. I have no shame in saying that I think society would be better if more people would be responsible with their reproductive lives by using effective birth control and when necessary abortion. I have seen the devastation unplanned and unprepared parenthood wreckes on generations of people. I celebrate the fact that American society at least has progressed beyond the point of making a woman have a child against her will in any context. And the motives I assign to Rebecca are mostly her own admissions. It isn't hard. I have a friend who is a sociology major. She critiqued Rebecca and came up with the same conclusions. Everyone I have shown her videos too so far has done the same. Rebecca knows darn well what she is doing is harmful to countless victims around the world. She does not care because the only thing that matters is her need to feel important is reaffirmed. I will continue to stand up to the likes of you and others who wish to keep women in bondage to misfortunes that befall them. I will work to ensure that women have the ability to plan their families by having access to both birth control AND abortion.
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